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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.27 15:44:00 - [1] This isn't very insightful as far as changes go, and is a step in the wrong direction as far as making 0.0 worth fighting over. It also do not especially allow a good time:moon mineral transfer. I was really hoping for something small moon mineral yields in refined high-ends. Oh well, one more reason to run L4s in high sec.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.27 15:58:00 - [2] Originally by: CCP Fallout pokes her head in Guys, let's keep this discussion civil and on topic please. This is an interesting change to our economy, so let's focus on that rather than name calling and such. Thanks :) You made a boring, uninspired change, and you're surprised at the lukewarm reception?
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.27 16:13:00 - [3] I hope this is only a stop gap measure to buy time for wider changes in the future, because otherwise you might want to seriously consider finding a new economist.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.27 16:47:00 - [4] I realize that a lot of this looks like reactionary nerd raging that you get in response to almost any change, but this really isn't an effective long term solution to the bottleneck problem. You sprung this on us without discussion, so this is where you're going to get your feedback on the idea. It is a good way to let more people get involved with moon mining, but prima facie worsens the risk-reward problems in 0.0, if not in lowsec, and does not actually allow players to convert labor into moon minerals --which is the only way to eliminate the bottleneck. It might ameliorate this problem for a brief time, but not in the long run.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:19:00 - [5] This is hardly the kind of change that is going to make anybody walk away from the game, but it is very lazy game design. If running POS was an interesting mechanic, or a good experience for players, I would like this change a lot more. But as it is, running POS is one of the least enjoyable processes in this game, and incentivizing it is a cruel joke on lowsec players (and mid-level 0.0 players). One less thing to fight over in 0.0, one less thing to distinguish different areas of 0.0 from each other, one less thing that makes 0.0 space as valuable as running missions in Motsu.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.27 18:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Olorin O'Maiar Way to screw up the Cadmium market with all kinds of speculators, since it is now the Dyspro 'substitute'. It was around 900 a week ago and now you cannot find anyone selling for under 4500. You should have allowed for multiple different cheap minerals to pair with the higher end minerals to distribute the pressure. It was above 4000 before this announcement was made. Speculation, not new demand caused by this patch, is what drove that price up. Maybe it will stay elevated because of this announcement, who knows.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.27 19:22:00 - [7] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: CCP Fallout (...) This is an interesting change to our economy, so let's focus on that (...) Well, the problem is dysprosium/promoteum selling concerns, say, 100 players ? 150 ? I think you won't have many applauses, then. It won't be the same if you told this about salvaging materials (for exemple) Good idea anyway. Too bad only 100-150 players (the same as before) will profit. It concerns every single player in 0.0 and, by extension, empire as well. The fights over these moons determine the course that the entire game takes. This is not a market balance change, this is a 0.0 warfare change. And it stinks.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.27 19:27:00 - [8] Originally by: Serenity Steele This is a creative game mechanic that is obviously achievable using "item type" modifications, and in this case the attributes of a reaction. While it's a highly creative solution that requires minimum programming effort, it is nothing more than that; ... Obviously now that it's announced it's a CCP policy no-go to un-announce it, so the EVE-universe is stuck with it. Creative? Hardly. This is a no-effort solution that dilutes the value of 0.0 space without seriously alleviating the market bottleneck. A more effective solution would be introducing quanitites of moon minerals in gravimetric sites, or very small amounts in high end ore refines.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.27 21:07:00 - [9] Originally by: Bane Glorious Originally by: Vio Geraci A more effective solution would be introducing quanitites of moon minerals in gravimetric sites, I like this idea. Thanks ^_^
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.29 14:25:00 - [10] The problem is that the amount of dysprosium/promethium has not significantly increased as the number of players on the server has increased. This change just adds a sort of price cap, perhaps as insulation against 0.0 cartels. In order to not have a bottleneck, you need to allow players to convert their time to moon minerals in some way. This is assuming that the bottleneck is undesirable, as I believe it to be. Adding more space is silly when 80% of 0.0 systems never see use anyway. Highsec moons are silly, too, because moon minerals are probably the main thing that empire relies on lowsec and nosec for.

Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.29 15:11:00 - [11] Edited by: Vio Geraci on 29/10/2008 15:11:07 Originally by: Vigilant Vio, anybet that every prom and dispo moon has a tower on it ? Although I'm sure there are a few dyspro/prom moons out there that haven't been found, the vast majority are seeing use right now. Moon space, more moons, won't solve anything unless CCP plans on adding them every time the player population hits a new benchmark. CCP Grayscale, what other changes have you got in mind for the moon mineral situation? Any that you are able to discuss?
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.29 16:25:00 - [12] I don't know what you think that would solve. The problem is that there is no "organic" way to increase moon mineral output in the game. Doing dev-level things like adding alchemy, t2 moon miners, etc.. Is only going to buy a little time, unless the developers plan on adding more ways to get moon minerals for every three thousand new players that join the game. Players being able to mine moon minerals at gravimetric sites would fit the bill nicely, allowing players to tranform labor (exploring, mining, running a POS) into a moon minerals. Any other solution is a band aid on a permanent scarcity market.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.03 05:15:00 - [13] Edited by: Vio Geraci on 03/11/2008 05:16:45 Originally by: Vengal Seyhan I've been watching the moon mineral market lately and it's been pretty fail. For example : Solerium in Jita currently costs less than the underlying ingredients. There is no point in making it vs selling the components. Caesium, an R32 mineral, is significantly cheaper than Chromium or Cadmium. Caesium seems to be the next Thulium. A lot of the moon mineral and component market is going to be screwed up because of speculation having to do with this next patch. A few months from now it will settle down, but in the meantime people will get confused and think that the weird prices are the problem CCP is trying to fix, or that the moons being profitable or too controlled by a cartel. None of these is the problem, the problem is that the moon mineral mechanic does not scale well with the increasing size of the game. Only a method to transform labor into moon minerals will do that. Quote: - 20 : 1 is excessive. It means your fixed cost of production on a medium POS goes from about 375ISK per unit to about 7500 ISK / unit for the reactions (these costs drawn from our own simple POS operations). 10:1 is They probably want to not influence the market too much at first, but see if it affects it or not. I bet the ratios will get better over the next six months, so long as there isn't a huge enough price spike to make the 20:1 ratio profitable. Quote: - Introducing even small amounts of moon minerals to be found in Magnetometric sites would break the monopoly market to some extent, and would be dynamic and reactive to player effort. It'd also buff exploration, and mag sites, which have always been sub-par in my opinion. It would also create a global buying market for moon minerals, so that other market hubs might start seeing some minerals buy orders, other than just Jita. (I think this is an awesome idea TBH!) Thanks! I would hope that CCP had those sites be more prominent in "good moon space" and not just smeared all over the map, though. As you may be aware, some regions have better moons than others, just like some have better minerals or rats. Or perhaps only have them in COSMOS constellation gravimetric sites, at first, to test their impact on the market. Quote: - Introduce reaction schemes that use the two under-valued R64 materials! [/ It would be neat if we could devise something for them to be good for, even if it wasn't as chokingly overvalued as Dysp and Prom. Quote: - Introduce 6 new moon minerals for these reactions and bias them to spawning on moons that have have NO valuable minerals on them. That wouldn't make as much difference as you think. The new moons would probably be divided among 0.0 alliances in roughly the proportions that the old moons are. Quote: - Allowing people to moon mine in high sec with an extremely high sec status. Tax this heavily (eg 90% tax), to control abundance. I foresee people will control supply by war deccing 1 player corps to smash their POS operations because they're valuable and vulnerable. I hope they never do this, because it would be a complete gimme for empire people, one could not use capitals against the easily fueled POS, and moon minerals are one of the very few areas in which empire depends on 0.0.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.05 06:31:00 - [14] Unless I misunderstood, the developer reply in this thread seems to imply that you can't refine the product at a POS --it must take place at a station. So the hidden cost you indicated is replaced by transportation costs, as well as a dependence on friendly stations. See http://www.eve-search.com/thread/908394/page/all#150 for what I'm talking about.
Vio Geraci Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.07 20:31:00 - [15] Originally by: sparroth How 'bout adding something cool to exploration, like the ability to scan down "comets" or something w/ grav probes. They would be a "mini moon" not attached to a planet that is only around for a couple months. Long enough to be worth setting up a POS at, but not permanent so CCP can adjust their rate of spawn to balance the economy. It would go something like "guy scans down a grav site in system X, turns out to be a comet instead of a normal hidden belt. Guy grabs some survey probes and sees what the comet will yield (and how long it will be around) decides it's worth setting up a POS to mine knowing he will have to take it back down in a couple months, or decides to just leave it for someone else to find. Brilliant idea.

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